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Discussing Big 12 QBs With And The Valley Shook

SB Nation's LSU blog And The Valley Shook recently did a story looking at Big 12 QBs from last season. Basically, Richard Pittman and some other ATVS writers created a new Quarterback Productivity Index, an index which they believe works better than the commonly used passer rating statistic. Using the ATVSQBPI, they ranked the SEC quarterbacks from last season, then they went ahead and ranked the Big 12 quarterbacks from last season. As might be expected, some of the rankings for the Big 12 quarterbacks were off the charts. If you could say that any QBPI of 7 or above was damn good, well, the Big 12 had nine QBs with the QBPI of above 7, or nine damn good quarterbacks. By comparison, the SEC only had three. (Jerrod Johnson was a lowly 6.50, which sounds terrible until you consider the fact that his stats were hurt by the number of sacks he took last season (30), which count against him in rushing yards.) The discussion in the comments then moved on to ask why there was such a discrepancy in numbers between the two conferences, and if the discrepancy was possibly because of offensive schemes.

Star-divide

From Displaced Tiger:

QB productivity difference is shocking.

Could the big difference in productivity between SEC and Big XII qbs be due to differences in the offensive schemes employed by the schools in each conference? (If such a scheme difference actually exists?)

 

Richard Pittman replies:

If the difference is one of offensive scheme..

then the SEC should be emulating it. You can’t argue with production. I think it’s more a difference of talent, both at QB and on the defensive side of the ball.

I then jump in:

I think it is mainly a scheme issue

Most Big 12 teams employ some type of spread offense (spare me your "the spread won’t work in the SEC" argument, Florida has disproved that myth), so it means defenses are seeing mostly 10 personnel all game long. SEC teams usually employ more of a pro-set on offense, so you see more 21 personnel in games. Having to worry about covering and stopping 3 athletes on a play like you do in the SEC is a hell of a lot easier than worrying about covering 5 athletes on a play, like we do in the Big 12.

The Big 12 also had a lot of experienced QBs last season: Bradford was a second-year starter, McCoy was in his third year starting, Harrell third year, Robinson second year, etc. I think the only QBs in their first year starting were Robert Griffin, Jerrod Johnson, and Austen Arnaud. Coincidently, they are among the bottom of your rankings.

Cody Johnson Hawkins was a second-year starter who ended up splitting time with another QB, so that effected his stats.

Richard replies to me:

I don't think it's purely a question of offensive scheme..

if it was, every SEC team should adopt a Big 12 like offensive scheme. Those Big 12 offenses were much more productive. The SEC teams aren’t going to say, "We know the Big 12 spreads got better production, but we’re going with a pro style because… because we want to." They’re rational actors and will do what is best for their teams. It’s possible those teams sacrificed effective running for effective passing, while the SEC coaches went for more of a balance. I haven’t looked at those statistics, but I don’t seem to recall the SEC’s rushing attacks being all that much better than the Big 12’s (outside of Texas, which did not have any productive running backs). I think the hyper-inflated Big 12 numbers are more a matter of talent than of of scheme, and I mean talent both at quarterback and on defense.

And I do some research and make a lengthly reply back:

I'm not so sure Big 12 offenses sacrificed rushing for passing

because the best rushing team in the conference (Oklahoma State) is also it’s most balanced offense, but they are also a spread team. Some teams ran the ball better than others, but that was also mainly due to skill on their offensive line. Texas A&M, for instance, had a putrid offensive line last season, and it reflected in both our passing and rushing stats, as we couldn’t run block well, and we gave up a ton of sacks. Baylor and texas were both led in rushing by their QBs, so their rushing stats are a little misleading. Baylor has a freak of nature at QB named Robert Griffin (if you haven’t heard of him, he makes Russell Shepard look slow), and he single-handedly kept Baylor in games with his feet and his arm. texas had a good passing game, so defenses concerned with coverage left all sorts of lanes open for Colt McCoy to run in on broken plays.

I would also argue that the Big 12 benefitted from having the best WRs in the nation playing in our conference. Your defensive stats will look bad when you’re trying to stop Michael Crabtree or Dez Bryant or Jeremy Maclin every weekend. We also had the pleasure of trying to shut down the best TE in the nation in Jermaine Gresham, and arguably the second best TE in the nation in Chase Coffman (who was really just a big inside receiver in Missouri’s spread offense).

I would say the best WR in the SEC last season was Percy Harvin, and he spent half his time running the ball; second best was probably Julio Jones or Brandon Lafell. Jones plays in a ground-bound offense, while Lafell plays in a balanced attack. Neither of those two are utilized as often as good receivers are in the Big 12.

Take a look at the Big 12 individual stats and the SEC individual stats, and compare receptions and yards of the top receivers in both conferences. There isn’t a single 1000 yard receiver in the SEC; 9 of the top 12 receivers in the Big 12 gained over 1000 yds. texas and Kansas both had TWO receivers on their respective teams surpass 1000 yds.

Also, consider the number of receptions per player; the most receptions for an SEC receiver was 63 by Lafell, the least among the receptions leaders for the Big 12 was 67 for Brandon Banks of KSU. The Big 12 had six WRs with 90 or more catches in 2008, with one (Jeremy Maclin) surpassing 100 receptions. Eight of the top twelve receivers in the Big 12, either judging by receptions per game or yds per game, had 80 or more receptions. That means over two-thirds of the conferences leading receivers were constant targets in their respective offenses. By contrast, only two of the top ten receivers in the SEC (judging by receptions per game) have over 60 receptions, and seven of the top ten have over 50 receptions. I think it is safe to say that SEC offenses were not as committed to passing the ball as Big 12 offenses were.

If you look at rushing statistics, the SEC boasts five RBs in their top 10 rushers who carried the ball 190 or more times; the Big 12 only has two. The top 3 rushers in the SEC carried the ball 250, 207, and 233 times, respectively; the top 3 rushers in the Big 12 carried the ball 241, 217, and 179 times, respectively. I think it is safe ot say that the SEC was a lot more committed to a systematic approach of running the ball than the Big 12 was.

Also, you will notice that in the SEC individual rushers list, you have only one school with two players in the top ten rushers: Alabama with Glen Coffee and Mark Ingram. In the Big 12, you have three pairs of teammates listed among the top twelve rushers, with Chris Brown and Demarco Murray representing OU, Jay Finley and Robert Griffin representing Baylor, and Baron Batch and Shannon Woods representing Texas Tech. I think this speaks to systemic differences in the offenses, where Big 12 schools are featuring rotating two backs in the backfield in 10 personnel, and splitting up the carries, to spread out the production, while the SEC seems to be putting the ball in the hands of one player, putting him behind a fullback, and hammering him at the line play after play.

There is also the fact that I think Big 12 offenses tend to operate from the shotgun, with a QB taking a direct snap every play, more than they do under center, taking an indirect snap. From what I’ve seen of most SEC offenses, the majority of the teams put their QB under center, and make him take an indirect snap. Why is this important? Because the shotgun gives the QB more time in the pocket, and makes it more difficult for the pass rush to get to him before he gets off the pass, while a QB dropping back from under center is moving back at the same time the pass rush is coming upfield, giving him less time to get a pass off.

Consider that the worst passing offense in the Big 12 was Baylor, who averaged a paltry 180.7 yds per game; that would have ranked as the seventh best passing attack in the SEC, behind LSU. The best passing offense in the SEC (Georgia) averaged 277 yds per game through the air; that would have been seventh best in the Big 12. I think any objective fan would agree that an offense that averages less than 200 yds passing per game is a poor passing offense; six SEC teams (or half the conference) average less than 200 yds passing per game. There are two offenses in the Big 12 that average less than 200 yds per game, and one of them (Baylor) had a dual threat QB who was equally as effective on his feet as he was with his arm, and also happened to be a true freshman. The other school (Colorado) played musical chairs at QB all season long, and was just poor overall on offense.

As to the question of why SEC offenses won’t switch to a spread scheme, I think part of it is because some of them truly believe the myth that the spread won’t work in the SEC, because the defenses are too fast. Florida has proven that myth to be false, though, and with Arkansas and Mississippi State now installing the spread offense, I think you’ll see that changing. I also think that there is a cultural influence at work here; I think SEC fans in general love power football, they love a tough running game against a tough defense, and the coaches are just giving them what they want.

I still contend that the Big 12 has superior QBs to the SEC, and that is what contributed to our obscene offensive numbers as a conference last year, and also explains why we have a very high average QBPI. With eight of the QBs on that list returning this year, we'll see if those obscene numbers continue. If my theory about elite WRs contributing to the numbers is correct, we should see a slight fall in the passing numbers this year, and a rise in the defensive rankings for Big 12 defenses.

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Comments

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All the defenses in the Big 12 sucked last year (save OU and tu on a couple of occasions), while all the offenses in the SEC sucked last year. It is as simple as that.

by miketag on Aug 20, 2009 12:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I don't dispute that the QBs in the Big XII are better..

In fact, I acknowledge it. I am really skeptical that scheme was a deciding factor, however. Yes, the Big XII used more pass-happy spread-style offenses, but the QBPI measures production on a “per play” basis. The fact that they passed more often should be more or less irrelevant. In fact, you would expect a negative correlation. If a team is passing all the time, and the opponent is playing pass every play, you would expect each pass to be a little less productive than it would be if the defense did not know what to expect.

This is also why I don’t put much stock in the differences in wide receiver numbers. I think that’s just a function of the fact that the Big XII teams passed more, which put the cumulative stats on a different scale than we saw in the SEC. Of course, it is also almost a truism that if the quarterbacks are more productive the wide receivers will be too. I think that with the QBPI being a rate stat, it’s not particularly instructive to look at cumulative stats to try to analyze it.

The SEC had a lot of new starters at quarterback last year. It also had a lot of really good defenses. I think the difference between the Big XII and the SEC was a combination of factors: better QBs in the Big XII and better defenses in the SEC.

Just a quick primer on the ATVSQBPI. The regular passer rating is an index that measures yards per play giving bonuses for completion percentage and touchdowns, and a penalty for interceptions, and then multiplies the result by 8.4 for no other reason than to make it confusing. The problems are multiple:

1. Rushing statistics are ignored completely, meaning a quarterback who throws the ball away to avoid a sack is actually PUNISHED by the standard QB rating relative to one who just holds onto the ball and takes the sack.

2. In the formula, a quarterback gets what amounts to a 12 yard bonus merely for completing a pass, which means it is better for a quarterback to throw a pass for a 10 yard loss than to throw it away. In the QBPI, a quarterback receives no bonus merely for completing the pass, but gets credit for the yards gained. A loss is treated as a loss whether it is a loss running the ball or a loss passing it. This way, an incomplete pass is better than a pass completed for a loss.

3. A touchdown pass gets about a 50 yard bonus while an interception gets only a 20 yard penalty. This is way out of balance and does not penalize interceptions enough. We correct it to a 20 yard bonus for touchdowns and a 30 yard penalty for interceptions. You also receive a 20 yard bonus for touchdown runs.

Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.

And The Valley Shook

by Richard Pittman on Aug 22, 2009 7:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and the reason we looked at the Big XII

was for comparison purposes. We looked at the Big XII because they are perceived as being high-octane offenses compared to the SEC. We wanted to see how they stacked up. It turned out, they really were high-octane compared to the SEC, and it wasn’t just due to more plays or some other rate-neutral concept like that.

We like to deflate myths and incorrect pre-conceptions, but it turns out that sometimes the myths are true. It then becomes a matter of figuring out WHY they’re true.

Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.

And The Valley Shook

by Richard Pittman on Aug 22, 2009 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

okay
The SEC had a lot of new starters at quarterback last year. It also had a lot of really good defenses.

Isn’t it possible that your defenses looked really good because you had a lot of new quarterbacks? Looking at the SEC ATVSQBI from 2007 and 2008, it seems mediocre QB play isn’t just because of inexperience, it is because y’all have a lot of mediocre QBs in that conference. I think because a lot of the SEC coaches know they don’t have game-changers at QB, they go with a conservative, ball-control scheme using 21 personnel most of the time so they can de-emphasize the importance of the QB. A perfect example of this was Alabama last season; even the most ardent SEC supporter would agree with me that John Parker Wilson was a big bag of mediocrity.

While I can agree that a passing-intensive scheme will make for better stats for wide receivers, you are also ignoring the fact that we had two of the best WRs in America playing in the Big 12 last season in Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech and Dez Bryant at Oklahoma State. Both Bryant and Crabtree were first team All-Americans, while the SEC didn’t have a single WR ranked on any of the three teams. The best they could do was Percy Harvin as a second team all-purpose player. The Big 12 had two TEs make All-American, as Chase Coffman made the first team and Jermaine Gresham made the second team (I’d argue the order should be reversed, though). This means that if you were in the Big 12 South and played Missouri last season (like texas), you would have faced the two best TEs and the two best WRs in the nation in four different weeks. That is going to have an effect on your defensive stats no matter how good you are.

I think the Big 12 had a perfect storm on offense last season, as they had a plethora of talented, experienced QBs teaming up with a group of phenomenally talented WRs, and they just passed every defense they faced silly.

I think Florida wearing down the SEC’s best defense in Alabama, and then Utah tearing ‘Bama a new one in Sugar Bowl shows that it isn’t just Big 12 schools that struggle with stopping spread offenses. Utah had an experienced upperclassman QB operating their spread offense, the same situation many Big 12 defenses faced week-in and week-out.

If the SEC was just suffering from poor play at QB due to a lot of inexperienced signal callers last season, what happened in 2007? Was it great defense then, too, or just poor QBs and conservative schemes making the defenses look great?

by Beergut on Aug 23, 2009 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's important to keep in mind that we never looked at Big XII stats in 2007..

we don’t know how they compared at that time. We know that in 2008, the Big XII offenses were way ahead of the Big XII defenses, at least in comparison to the SEC.

Also, i think you’re making too much of the “We had 2 1st team all-americans” at wide receiver" argument. Do you think that might have had something to do with the fact that the Big XII passed a lot more and so they developed better cumulative stats? Not to take anything away from Dez Bryant and Michael Crabtree, but do you really think they are all that much more talented than Brandon Lafell, Julio Jones, and AJ Green?

I would agree that John Parker Wilson was a big bag of mediocrity, but do you really think that Austin Arnaud was significantly better? If you just looked at the ATVSQBPI, you would think so. Austin Arnaud had a 6.46 rating, while John Parker Wilson had a 5.87 rating. That is a significant difference. In fact, Arnaud would have had a better rating than all but 3 SEC quarterbacks: Tim Tebow, Jevan Snead, and Matthew Stafford. That’s one #1 overall draft pick (with two very good receivers to throw to), 1 future likely 1st round pick, and arguably the best college football player ever. Arnaud would have been pretty close to their level, and yet his team won 2 games and finished with a 10 game losing streak, including a loss to UNLV. And Arnaud did not have an all-american receiver or tight end to throw to.

To believe it has to do entirely with scheme and QB-quality, you have to believe that Austin Arnaud was a significantly better quarterback than John Parker Wilson, or that the Iowa State offensive coaching staff was significantly better than Alabama’s. Those are two propositions that I do not accept. I can, however, accept that Alabama faced better defenses, on the whole, than Iowa State faced.

Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.

And The Valley Shook

by Richard Pittman on Aug 23, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is making for a good discussion
Do you think that might have had something to do with the fact that the Big XII passed a lot more and so they developed better cumulative stats? Not to take anything away from Dez Bryant and Michael Crabtree, but do you really think they are all that much more talented than Brandon Lafell, Julio Jones, and AJ Green?
I would agree that John Parker Wilson was a big bag of mediocrity, but do you really think that Austin Arnaud was significantly better?

Yes. Austin Arnaud is a difference maker, JPW is just a game-manager. Austin Arnaud can make plays that will win games for you, JPW will only avoid making the mistakes that will lose games for you, and that is if you have a stud RB to take the pressure off of him. JPW is a mediocre college QB, and wouldn’t have started at a single Big 12 school, and that includes Iowa State.

In fact, Arnaud would have had a better rating than all but 3 SEC quarterbacks: Tim Tebow, Jevan Snead, and Matthew Stafford.

Hence, my argument that the SEC isn’t really about great defense, it is about poor quarterbacking leading to poor offensive production. When there are only three QBs in the conference that are better than the Big 12’s 11th best QB, you have a conference full of poor QBs.

That’s one #1 overall draft pick (with two very good receivers to throw to), 1 future likely 1st round pick, and arguably the best college football player ever. Arnaud would have been pretty close to their level, and yet his team won 2 games and finished with a 10 game losing streak, including a loss to UNLV.

Okay, first of all, the fact that Matt Stafford was a #1 draft pick has nothing to do with how good of a college QB he was, and everything to do with how his size, his arm, and his potential project the career he will have in the NFL. Let’s get that out of the way first. We are talking about college QBs and how they play in the college game, not someone’s pro potential, so using where someone was drafted to back up the argument that they were an elite college QB is disingenuous.

I have watched Stafford since he was in high school, and I was never that impressed with him while he was at Georgia. He came out of high school as a kid with proto-typical size, speed, and arm strength for an NFL QB, and he left Georgia the same way. I am a big fan of Mark Richt as a coach, b/c I think he really knows his stuff, but I wasn’t very impressed with how Stafford developed at Georgia. We’re talking about a kid who had only three 300 yd and one 400 yd passing games in his career.

As for Jevan Snead, please. This is a kid who transfered out of the Big 12 b/c he wasn’t good enough to win a starting job here, and who would have been a backup, at best, on every single Big 12 team last season.

As for Arnaud’s team, Iowa State was effected more by their complete and total lack of a defense than it was by their offense. In fact, when A&M beat Iowa State last season, Iowa State had outgained us offensively, but we made some stops on defense while they simply couldn’t stop our offense. ISU’s problems were not on offense, and especially not Austin Arnaud.

And Arnaud did not have an all-american receiver or tight end to throw to.

This just proves my point that it is a schematic issue, that we run schemes (the spread) that takes advantage of where our difference maker is on the team (the QB).

To believe it has to do entirely with scheme and QB-quality, you have to believe that Austin Arnaud was a significantly better quarterback than John Parker Wilson, or that the Iowa State offensive coaching staff was significantly better than Alabama’s.

There are two propositions that it isn’t difficult for me to aceept, b/c I do believe Arnaud was a significantly better QB than JPW, and I think anyone who watched both Arnaud and JPW play in ‘08 would agree with me. I also think that the Iowa State staff may have been better than the ’Bama staff, simply b/c they took a program with inferior talent to just about every other team in the Big 12, and made a competitive offense out of it, while Alabama’s staff took a team with a talent advantage over most of the conference (I would guess Florida and probably LSU out-talent ‘Bama, not sure who else?) and put it into a conservative offensive scheme that didn’t exploit their talent advantages. This is another reason Utah was able to beat ’Bama; conservative offensive playcalling by ’Bama.

by Beergut on Aug 24, 2009 5:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?
As for Jevan Snead, please. This is a kid who transfered out of the Big 12 b/c he wasn’t good enough to win a starting job here, and who would have been a backup, at best, on every single Big 12 team last season.

Surely that’s hyperbole, Gut. You honestly think that Snead could not have started for ANY Big 12 team last year? Really?

Jevan Snead: 184/327 for 2762 yds, 26 TD’s, 13 INT’s
Cody Hawkins: 183/320 for 1892 yds, 17 TD’s, 10 INT’s
Josh Freeman: 224/382 for 2945 yds, 20 TD’s, 8 INT’s
Austen Arnaud: 247/401 for 2792 yds, 15 TD’s, 10 INT’s
Jerrod Johnson: 194/326 for 2435 yds, 21 TD’s, 10 INT’s

And surely you agree that Snead played a tougher slate of defenses than did the others on this list.

You put some good analysis out there sometimes, but you mix in so much drivel it’s hard to tell the difference sometimes.

by ctex80 on Aug 25, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I forgot about Colorado

that is the only school he might have started at.

Freeman was surrounded by a poor team, as was Arnaud; I’ll take both of them over Snead, especially in the schemes they were playing in last season.

Jerrod started fewer games than Snead, and still had better stats, and that was while he was surrounded by no offensive line, while Snead was protected by an All-American LT in Michael Oher.

So, at best, Snead would have been the 12th best QB in the Big 12 last season. As for SEC defenses, no, he did not face better defenses, which is part of the whole discussion I’m havng with Richard here; he faced defenses with inflated stats because they faced poor offenses most of the season. With the exception of Florida, most SEC teams had pedestrian offenses.

by Beergut on Aug 25, 2009 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still think you're being disingenuous.

How are Johnson’s stats demonstrably better? Also, let’s not discount the progress Snead made throughout the season. 20 TD’s and only 6 INT’s over his last 9 games. Once Snead figured out the offense (remember, these were the first starts of his college career) he was quite good. Jerrod Johnson’s numbers over his last 9 games? 15 TD’s, 9 INT’s.

You may be the only person in the country who would take Johnson over Snead. How about this year? Do you think Johnson or Snead will post better numbers? Also, if you won’t look at numbers to determine which defense is better than another, what do you look at exactly?

by ctex80 on Aug 26, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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